The Confederate battle flag is what makes America stupid: Spengler

As the New York Times reports this morning, not a single Republican presidential candidate has the courage to tell South Carolina to stop flying the Confederate battle flag from its state capitol. It is a bit late for that, to be sure; public display of any kind of the symbol of the slaveholders’ rebellion should have been banned after the Union victory in 1865. Removing the Confederate flag from the grounds of South Carolina’s seat of government has become an African-American cause in the wake of last week’s Charleston church massacre. It may be incommensurate with the crime, but black Americans are entirely justified in their rancor against official sanction of a symbol of slavery.

On moral grounds I sympathize with the African-American view, but there is an even more urgent reason to rip down the Confederate flag. Our refusal to look squarely at the evil character of the American Confederacy turned us into idiots. It may be a bit late to remedy this national lapse in mental capacity, but one has to start somewhere.

America never recovered from its Civil War, which killed nearly a million combatants on both sides. The Union won on the battlefield but conceded a cultural victory of sorts to the defeated South, spinning a myth of Southern gallantry in a lost cause. This myth dominated the popular culture from D.W.Griffiths’ 1916 epic “Birth of a Nation” (which celebrates the rise of the Klu Klux Klan) to Margaret Mitchell’s Gone With the Wind with its romantic image of antebellum plantation culture.

Confederate battle flag

This concession to a wicked cause cut America off from the principles of its Founding and ultimately turned us into idiots. It was not always so, as Angelo Codevilla explained in his masterful 2014 book “To Make and Keep the Peace.” John Quincy Adams and Abraham Lincoln performed brilliantly in the foreign policy arena; Lincoln’s alliance with Russia kept Great Britain from joining with the Confederacy to carve up the American republic.

I wrote not long ago on the anniversary of the Southern surrender at Appomattox Courthouse:

The white churches, though, were three generations ahead of the black churches in distancing themselves from the dangerous passions of the Civil War. When Julia Ward Howe of blessed memory sang in”The Battle Hymn of the Republic” of “grapes of wrath,” she invoked the terrible words of Isaiah 63, in which God comes from Edom with his garments stained red, saying, “I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.” By the turn of the 20th century, the apocalyptic Protestantism of what Lincoln called an “almost-chosen people” had turned into Social Gospel and universal salvation.

That is American exceptionalism: the belief that America can be a better kind of nation than the ethnocentric nations of Europe, in emulaton of the biblical Israel. That was the impulse of the Founders, born, as Harvard’s Eric Nelson explains in The Hebrew Republic, of the English Revolution’s attempt to design a polity on biblical principles. The Civil War destroyed this impulse, because it killed too many of the New Englanders who believed, as Lincoln put it, that America was “an almost chosen nation.”

Protestantism in America shifted from saving souls to social engineering. The sin of the South was too great to acknowledge; after the sacrifice of nearly 30% of its military-age man and the reduction of its standard of living by half, the defeated white South could not admit to itself that it had gotten precisely what was coming to it for wickedness of slavery. It is revolting to read Southern writers’ rationalizations for Southern wickedness, for example, David French last week in The National Review. French argues:

When the war began, it was not explicitly a war to end slavery. Indeed, had the Union quickly accomplished its war aims, slavery would have endured, at least for a time. When hundreds of thousands of southern men took up arms (most of them non-slave-owning), many of them fought with the explicit belief that they were standing in the shoes of the Founding Fathers, men who’d exercised their own right of self-determination to separate from the mother Country.

That is nonsense: the future president of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, offered to keep the southern states in the Union after Lincoln’s election in 1860 if only Lincoln would agree to the annexation of Cuba as a new slave territory, a history I reviewed here. The South fought for the dream of a slave empire stretching southwards, and the 90% of Southern soldiers who owed no slaves hoped to get them–like Wallenstein’s mercenaries or Napoleon’s foot-soldiers with field marshall’s batons in their rucksacks. Like Wallenstein’s and Napoleon’s armies, the Confederates fought with desperate courage, but for rapine rather than right. Crushing them was the noblest thing the United States ever did.

The South could not live in the knowledge that its heroic sacrifices were offered in a wicked cause, and its response was to excise from religion the notion of sin and virtue, and replace it with social engineering. Woodrow Wilson’s father was a Southern clergyman who preached a biblical justification of slavery; as president, Woodrow Wilson replaced American foreign policy with social engineering on a global scale. The North could not live with its own enormous sacrifice; as I argued elsewhere, “Americans decided that they would rather not have a God who demanded sacrifice from them on this scale – 10% of military-age Northern men, 30% of military-age Southern men. They did not want to be a Chosen People held accountable for their transgressions. They wanted instead a reticent God who withheld his wrath while they set out to make the world amenable to their own purposes. The New England elite went to war as convinced Abolitionists singing of the coming of God who trampled out the vintage of the grapes of wrath and wielded a terrible swift sword. They came back convinced that no idea could be so righteous or so certain as to merit the terrible sacrifices of their generation.”

Americans are not inherently stupid. The Civil War made us stupid. It persuaded us that we were better off playing God than leaving the outcome to a God who might demand such terrible sacrifices of us once again. The most brilliant physicist will go mad if he becomes obsessed with perpetual motion, and the most brilliant statesman will go just as made if he devotes his life to perpetual peace.

Abraham Lincoln told Americans in his last major utterance, the Second Inaugural Address: “If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him?” That isn’t what Americans wanted to hear. Instead, they wanted to hear that clever social engineers could fix the world’s problems and obviate the need for such sacrifices in the future.

The trauma of the Civil War drove us towards Wilsonian Universalism, which lives on in the form of George W. Bush’s “world democratic revolution.” America confronts a number of cultures that are bent on genosuicide. We fail to recognize the symptoms, because we shut our eyes to one of modern history’s most striking examples of civilizational self-destruction, namely the American South. America can’t hope to make sense of the world if it refuses to think about its own history.

Intelligence begins with emotional acceptance of the consequences of one’s actions.

(Copyright 2015 Asia Times Holdings Limited, a duly registered Hong Kong company. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)



Categories: AT Top Writers, David P. Goldman, Spengler

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  • Kate Arbogast

    All true. But there’s a much simpler way to view the Confederate flag issue. The Confederate states rebelled against the United States of America; they committed treason. After Appomattox, they struck their colors. When a defeated army strikes its colors only to raise them again, it’s a sign of treachery and a call for renewed hostilities. Is that what South Carolina and the other Southern states are seeking? After the Civil War, many officers and soldiers of the rebel army, as well as many government officials, took an oath of renewed allegiance to the United States. Are the “sons of the Confederacy” now saying that the heroes they worship where wrong to strike the colors, surrender and swear allegiance to the Union? Not a very lofty hero-worship if that’s the new Southern attitude.

  • Preston Montfort

    That isn’t the Confederate flag. It used to be the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and whether or not South Carolinians choose to fly it, is the business of South Carolinians. Last time I checked, there were 50 sovereign states.

  • TROLLyfc

    Yesterday Romney tweeted: Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims.

  • ScottSticklin

    Help me out here Preston. Where exactly is the language in the Constitution or any of its subsequent amendments, language affirming that states are sovereign in relation to the USA?

  • Ron Bockman

    The Confederate flag is an indelible symbol in American history.

  • Rick Dyer

    This article is absurd.

  • RichardPearce

    The national conceit of Americans is that they will always be on the right side of things. The Civil War shows how unfounded that conceit is in ways that cannot be explained away even by Americans unless the pro-slavery states can pretend that their war to expand slavery was in some way moral. And the aftermath of the Civil War shows how unfounded that conceit is in ways that cannot be explained away even by Americans unless the anti-slavery states can pretend that their agreeing to let the ‘freed slaves’ be so systematically denied their rights was in some way moral. So both parts of America pretend as hard as they can, and, equally important, try and preserve the room for the other part to keep up its pretence. Which leads to the leaders of America finding it a lot easier to continue to back the wrong sides around the world, no matter how much that costs. than to admit that America is not always on the right side.

  • Preston Montfort

    The states are sovereign in relation to the other states,and there’s that pesky 10th Amendment… “The powers not delegated to the United States by the
    Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
    the States respectively, or to the people.”

  • STroxel

    As is the Nazi flag with German history. These flags belong at best in a museum or history book.

  • mike Kelley

    the war never ended for the south,i see it every day. the people that fly the nazi flag are cowards,just like the whole south! i had a neighbor that wore a “white power” T-shirt around his house,but when i asked him to wear it in public,he ran back in to his house,like the little bitch coward he was.if you are afraid of what might happen,maybe you might be wrong.

  • STroxel

    Nice to see Romney morally leading from the front instead monitoring the polls like a coward. This is a no brainier. Why would you fly a flag in official state capacity that does include all your citizen?

  • James Jerome

    In no country in History that has had a civil war, would they let the Losers fly their flag, it would say that the losers are still in a state of war with the winners. The winners would still conduct military operations against them until no flag is flying, even if it meant near genocide of the losers. The reason the flag is still flying in the south is because the majority of southern whites are racist’s and that includes all police departments and legislatures, on the other foot the Union who that won the war have an underlying layer of racial animosity also, and is why they did not put up to much opposition to it.

  • Nathan Donaldson

    I’ve been to church and heard sermons how being kind to the Jew has helped keep the USA in God’s good graces. I assume that has something to do with shelling out a couple billion dollars a year in foreign “aid” to Israel every year and voting unwaveringly in their favor at the UN. To me that seems a far more relevant form of idiocy than any a outdated symbol that exist in a fraction of the country.

  • Roger Cotton

    I look forward to America’s immediate salvation, the cessation of all inter-racial hostilities, and the end of all racism, as soon as the Confederate Flag is banned.

  • Jon Robbins

    Have to laugh at the Goldman claiming this: “That is American exceptionalism: the belief that America can be a better kind of nation than the ethnocentric nations of Europe, in emulaton of the biblical Israel”

    Ethnocentric nationalism is at the core of Jewish identity. Hated the Samaritans. Demanded to be treated as ubermenschen by the Egyptians–in Egypt! Alienated the Greeks early on and then barged into Europe uninvited for some reason or other.

    Goldman: “They did not want to be a Chosen People held accountable for their transgressions.”

    Funny that genocide of the Canaanites is at the heart of the Jewish Bible but no word of apology from any Jew about that–certainly not from Goldman. Or is genocide a transgression only when it’s used AGAINST the Jews rather than BY them?

  • Ken5745

    The writer is right to say that “America can’t hope to make sense of the world if it refuses to think about its own history.”

    For a start I suggest that Americans reflect on this sentence in the second paragraph of the US Declaration of Independence made on 4th July 1176, from the British Tyrant and mad King George III :

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Thomas Jefferson, aged 31 and a lawyer with only 8 years of practice in Virginia, was tasked to draft the US Declaration of Independence by a committee of 5 people.

    The paradox was that when he wrote his final draft that “that all men are created equal” he had many slaves in Virginia (120?). His draft pertaining to slavery was also either expunged from the Final Draft or was “sweetened” to please the egregious slave-owning Southern members of the Continental Congress.

    In other words, they kicked the slavery can down the road for the sake of convenience and America paid the deadly price when the Civil War broke out almost 84 years later when nearly 1 million died.

    If the South insists on flying the Confederate battle flag then the Americans have not learned anything from history, particular the fact that it is self-evident that all men are created equal.

  • Ken5745

    The Confederate flag is no doubt an indelible symbol of evil in American history.

  • David

    Good article David

  • rls976

    I don’t think he was afraid of what might happen because he was wrong. Lets see you, if you are a white man, parade up and down Martin Luther King Boulevard in a big city, or maybe Florissant Avenue in Ferguson, Missouri, unarmed, after dark. Better yet, have your wife or daughter(s) do it, if they are white. Would you really have them do that? If not, why not? Because it would be “wrong”?

  • rls976

    Thomas Jefferson said it in the Declaration of Independence, did he not?

  • mijikai

    Thanks, Jon. Saved me a lot of effort this AM.

    I will read anything Goldman pens. Few others can bring such erudition and novel perspectives to all the usual controversies. How that doesn’t prevent his 8 year-old’s certitude about the religion into which he was indoctrinated is one of the Glorious Mysteries of the internet.

  • Preston Montfort

    I repeat… whatever flag South Carolina flies over its capitol is strictly the business of the citizens of South Carolina. The citizens of the 49 other states don’t have to like it or agree with it. It is THAT simple.

  • Dirk

    The Civil war brought forth the first Jewish secretary of state in America, but he served the Confederacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin

  • Ron Bockman

    How little you know. The Confederate flag represented a very large number of American citizens fighting for states rights.

  • Brabantian

    There were black soldiers who fought for the Confederacy & its US Constitution principles … & there are black intellectuals today supporting Southerners who wave rebel flags & honour their heritage … Yet David Goldman aka Spengler supports a racist Israel that favours white barely-even-Jews from Europe, whilst denying entry to genuine Jews from Africa because they have black skin colour after centuries of intermarriage, & Israel supporting the vilest, genocide-tinged anti-Palestinian racism.

    It’s clear that the original US Constitution died at Gettysburg, with ‘slavery’ a Trojan horse for US empire fanatics … Abraham Lincoln himself said he favoured slavery if it were better for US nationalist empire. The fascism of the US today, traces directly back to the defeat of US state sovereignty in 1861-65, leaving USA citizens with no legal recourse given the pro-empire corruption of US courts & the US Congress who fail to remove US dishonest pro-oligarch judges.

  • ScottSticklin

    That’s a bit different than sovereign Preston.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    This is an inappropriate and damaging article for it tows the line of the liberal media. Racism in the US is seen both in the black and white community. Since this article is exclusively on White racism, my comment will be on black racism
    Reverend Sharpton comes out of his white neighborhood, only when there are race issues. He never addresses the many social problems of the black community but feeds of racism to keep his elitist job.
    Reverend Farrakhan and Reverend Wright’s fiery racist sermons, made from the pulpit of a church, against anyone who is not White and mainly directed at whites and Jews, goes hardly reported.
    Black gangs who do what Roof has done, on non Blacks are not even made into a media issue. It is covered by a select few media and that is it. Go to a black ghetto and there is a good chance you will be killed if not beaten severely. You best be black.
    Black culture has now defined America to such a degree, that it goes as mainstream. From clothing (baggy pants), language (Ghetto terms), music (Rap) black culture is the new face of America. Whites and others are marginalized by the US media and even the US justice system.
    When discussing racism pleased include black racism as well
    Slavery was not the issue of the civil war, secession was. Slavery entered the civil war just after that issue. The Civil war started at Fort Sumter, South Carolina, when she wanted to secede from the Union.
    As for slavery itself, from the 17th to the 19th century the total slave population of the United States was around 650 thousand. Today in India there are 15 million known slaves (out of an estimated 30 million world wide) making India the world’s largest slave based nation, if not history’s largest slave based society.

  • Darryl Harb

    “Lincoln’s alliance with Russia kept Great Britain from joining with the Confederacy to carve up the American republic.” Yet the British love to grandstand on the claim that the Royal Navy ended slavery. And they also forget the poor Brits and Micks press-ganged into the RN’s wooden hells.

  • Jams O’Donnell

    Actually, you have to laugh at Goldmans disaproval of US anti-black attitudes, when his own anti-Palestinian attitudes are exactly the same. But then, hypocrisy is always a mainstay of right-wingers.

    “Intelligence begins with emotional acceptance of the consequences of one’s actions.” – if thats true Goldman and 98% of the population of Israel are extremely dim.

  • Jams O’Donnell

    What? You are still fighting for state’s right’s to enslave black people? Because that’s what the civil war was all about. (See contemporary quotes).

  • Jams O’Donnell

    “all men are created equal” – tell that to a Zionist.

  • Jams O’Donnell

    And perhaps you might be another racist, like Goldman.

  • rls976

    How is that?

  • Val Cocora

    or to a muslim jihadi.

  • tz

    Maybe in some people’s minds the War of Northern Aggression is an invasion and ongoing 150+ year occupation.

  • Ron Bockman

    Your response is shallow, the issue went beyond slavery and was appropriately dealing with an oppressive federal government.

  • tz

    And maybe that is a good thing. A black colleague told me he would much rather deal with overt racists than covert ones. Perhaps S.C. should let its wicked racist slavery supporting freak flag fly for all to see.
    By Your Works Ye Shall Be Known

  • tz

    Off topic, but related. I wish the two attorneys general in Oklahoma and Nebraska would leave us Colorado voters who legalized cannabis alone, rather than moving to involve the SCOTUS in efforts to undermine the election results here. Do elections matter?

  • tz

    So each group’s racism justifies the other’s? It seems that a minority that has suffered slavery, and other forms of repression to this day might have some basis for forming some prejudices and bigotries. Not right, but understandable.

  • Stumbled upon it following the link at The News Scouter: http://newsscouter.com/

    Very interesting analysis of the Confederate tyranny – Things have not changed much

  • Preston Montfort

    Each state has its own government and laws. The governing body of one has no authority in another, nor do state laws apply across state lines. That IS sovereignty.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Got comment. one more thing wrong with the article is the Confederate battle flag is different from the Confederate flag. the battle flag was fighting for secession. The state of Texas was an independent nation for 10 years and slavery in the US was also in many Union States. when the founding fathers of the 13 colonies formed the documents that shaped the US and the world, they had slaves.
    NO American black today has any personal experience of slavery. NONE. No more than the Jews under Egypt or so many cultures that experienced slavery. But the well to do black community acts as it slavery is an issue for them, including the black President of the US who was elected,by a majority of white voters.
    That cannot be said of India tx. Yet the world and Asia Times will not do an article on the 15 million slaves of India, who live a life so terrible it should be headline news.

  • Preston Montfort

    Funny thing, that those who choose to be offended get to choose the motives of the offenders. You may consider it a symbol of racism and slavery. I don’t.

  • Preston Montfort

    Apparently not.

  • David

    It is the hate that has to end. That is the main weapon of the left. I have observed them constantly for decades trying to make every thing that anyone does or says they disagree with look either hatful or stupid or what ever. Instead of actually having conversations about real causes to problems.

  • Jon Robbins

    “I’ve been to church and heard sermons how being kind to the Jew has helped keep the USA in God’s good graces.”

    Just out of interest, what denomination are you speaking of?

  • Nathan Donaldson

    At two Baptist denominations

  • Jon Robbins

    Thanks.

  • Nathan Donaldson

    To clarify, the sermons weren’t about the topic of Jews per se, but mentioned in passing

  • mulga mumblebrain

    The genocides of the various Canaanites were followed by the all-purpose ‘Amalekite’ curse, where Yahweh expects that multi-faceted enemy to be pursued then exterminated. Over the years I’ve seen the Palestinians (of course) Arabs, Moslems and even the ‘United States of Amalek’ mentioned as possible victims of future Holy Holocausts as ‘Amalek’. Not to forget those ‘religious’ celebrations of Passover (the genocide of the first-born including animals, a nice touch)and Purim, the genocide of 75,000 ‘followers of Haman’, men, women and children. When one considers the contemporary Judaic doctrine, as espoused by the Yesha Council of Rabbis and Torah Sages in 2006, as Lebanon was being bombed to rubble in another demonstration of Israeli martial valour (imagine if Hezbollah had an air-force, or top of the range missile defences)that killing civilians in time of war is not just acceptable, but, in fact, is a mitzvah or religiously sanctioned good deed, you can see where the blood-lust to ‘mow the grass’ of Gazan children, comes from.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Your greatest kindness has been in not protesting as Jewish money power bought up your politics, MSM, much of Big Business, particularly finance and the entertainment industry. And in turning a blind eye to nepotism so expertly practised that Ivy League colleges contain on average 20% Jewish students, ie ten times over-represented, and Princeton was actually criticised with veiled hints of ‘antisemitism’ being at work because the figure was ‘only’ 13%.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Many ‘Christian’ denominations support Israel only because they believe that the Jews ‘returning’ to Israel is required before their Apocalyptic fantasies can come true. In true psychopathic fashion they slaver for the End Times where all the ‘Ungodly’, including Jews who won’t convert, will be slaughtered in hideous fashion. With friends like these…

  • mulga mumblebrain

    To any fundamentalist, religious, racist, or ideological.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Every community contains racists, supremacists chauvinists, jingos etc-even the Sinhalese. But each community also includes decent types who recognise that human beings share far more than they do not, and that there is really only one ‘race’-the human race. Even Israel has many such people.

  • Jon Robbins

    Understand.

  • Preston Montfort

    Amazing leap. I haven’t seen one like that since Bob Beamon in the 1968 Olympics. Do you have any adult comments or questions?

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    When one starts generalizing you are dismissing the issue. concentrate on the US. example
    A woman goes to the police and tells them she has bee repeatedly molested by a group of men.
    the police tell her that this kind of behavior happens all over the world so just get over it. That does not work. they cannot dismiss her suffering by generalizing the issue.
    If you want to excuse black racism then say so and also admit you will support black racism even if they come to your house, kill your loved ones, and burn the house down, simply because you are not black.

  • Catine

    Oh my, lack of understanding and prejudice against the South seems so avid, since
    the North had Slaves also. In early times, even White one’s dropped off along our
    Eastern Seaboard by the thousands, by the Brits in 1700’s. So by middle of 1800’s
    these Celtic Anglos had enough votes to elect one of their own, Andrew Jackson.
    The Civil Was about money for the South did not pay import or export taxes
    or some such….a grave loss to the North.
    But Goldman, apparently, studied some history but was written by so called Yankee’s, No?
    Remember the winners write the history and OMG, did Lincoln’s close friend Herndon write
    about ole Abe to the fullest glory. Great brain washing stories in this area plus debasing Mary
    Todd Lincoln but seeming no objection by Poor Ole Abe.
    Got such a young Nation, American Literature is great, if only people would read it.

  • Fernando Martinez

    The worst racists against blacks, are other blacks. It’s awful to hear but true. SOME Black americans can call you a cracker, an uncle tom, a niggar and all other types of horrible epithets and they get a free pass. Maybe the one’s who behave that way should be described as culturally BLAKKK. Or maybe blacKKK

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Al Sharpton comes out of his mainly rich white neighborhood to sermonize about racism but do little else when it comes to black issues. The pathetic thing is black voters still will vote them in because they are black and not because they are solving black problems. That is one issue
    those liberals, including the US mainstream media are one of the most vociferous when it comes to name calling and guilt tripping anyone who points to black racism. They are even worse. they do not live in black neighborhoods., they are usually well off whites who only associate with their own kind. I know. I lived the high life in liberal Berkeley, where bleeding heart white liberals would not have one single black person in their parties and get together, but come out screaming “racist” the moment they have an opportunity.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    One more thing. Hollywood did a feature movie in my town. they used my historic home to interview the actors and crew. they also had shots of this house in that move (the free state of Jones). It is a true story of a black/white love affair during the civil war. The entire work crew were white. I saw only one black person. many Mexicans and this town has a lot of unemployed blacks. They would have loved a job from this studio. That is reality. whether this comment is printed or not I hope you get it. My last comment was removed.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    You are full of BS

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Your observations speak for themselves.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Thank you. that is what an observation is supposed to do’ speak for itself.

  • davidpgoldman

    How many American Christians do you know personally? I know hundreds, and I do not know one who fits your description.

  • davidpgoldman

    Slander. Israel has admitted hundreds of thousands of black African Jews, and one sees them everywhere in IDF uniforms. As for empire: Lincoln fought the Civil war to PREVENT the South from establishing a slave empire.

  • davidpgoldman

    Israel has one man one vote, and elects Arab Knesset members who call for the destruction of the State of Israel. Name me one Arab counrtry, big talker, where Arabs have political rights on par with Israel. A third of the undergrads at U. of Haifa are Arabs, and a fifth of all Israeli med students.

  • davidpgoldman

    Racist? I’ve been in the Civil Rights movement since I was a child. I personally led a civil rights demonstration with Rev. Andrew Young. What exactly have you done for civil rights? I’m big on civil rights, but not on self-serving “narratives.”

  • davidpgoldman

    Self-serving baloney, Mr. Bockman. 60% of the wealth of the southern states in 1860 was in the form of slaves.

  • davidpgoldman

    I was raised an atheist. I became religious in my ’30s. If you want to know about my religious reviews, see http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/08/the-god-of-the-mathematicians

  • davidpgoldman

    What about the murder of the first-born of Egypt? On this and other unpleasantness see
    http://www.firstthings.com/article/2011/06/elective-antipathies

  • davidpgoldman

    A handful of blacks fought for the Confederacy under special circumstances. http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2015/01/black_confederates_not_a_myth_here_s_why.html The notion that blacks supported the ideals of the Confederacy is ridiculous.

  • Ron Bockman

    In a country where neo-nazis have the “civil right” to march and display the swastika, an historic symbol in American history is being banned.

  • davidpgoldman

    The price of cotton rose 50% during the 1850s. The South’s terms of trade were never better (including Northern tariffs). The tariff question is one more smokescreen to cover the South’s wickedness. None of the states’ 1860 secession documents even mentions tariffs.

  • davidpgoldman

    No federal, state or local government office displays the swastika. That’s what the argument is about.

  • Ron Bockman

    maybe you are not paying close enough attention, there is discussion know about taking down the Jefferson Memorial, what’s next, renaming Washington D.C.?
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-23/cnn-goes-there-asks-if-thomas-jefferson-memorials-should-be-removed-because-he-owned

  • davidpgoldman

    I’m for taking down the Lincoln Memorial, that ludicrous knockoff of the Temple of Zeus at Olympus, which has Lincoln on a throne decorated with the Roman fasces. To portray Lincoln as a Cicero, a tribune of Rome, whose economy was entirely based on slavery, is an outrage. I’m no fan of Jefferson for any number of reasons. Best would be to change into an Adams-Jefferson memorial.

  • Ron Bockman

    You do know Dave, that they were here long before our Bubbes, and Zaydes.

  • davidpgoldman

    Congregation Shearith Israel (where my friend Dr. Meir Soloveichik is chief rabbi) was founded in 1654. Numerous of the ancestors of current members of the synagogue fought for Washington in the Revolutionary War. see https://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/blessed-unions/

  • Ron Bockman

    bravo

  • davidpgoldman

    I would have to agree that it is a state’s prerogative, but the rest of us have a right to a view of its appropriateness. Strictly speaking, the federal government would have the right to repress as seditious the display of a symbol of rebellion against the Union, but there has been no such implication these past 120 years. That isn’t what the discussion is about, though: We are arguing about whether S. Carolina should take it down.

  • Jon Robbins

    “What about the murder of the first-born of Egypt?’

    OK, what about it? If you have a point to make, then make it–don’t give me a linked article to wade through.

  • Jon Robbins

    Nothing but a smoke screen.

    Israel and the Zionist project in general were only achieved by dispossessing Arabs, who made up the VAST majority of the population of Palestine (over 90% at the end of WW I). The goal has been to strip Palestinians of their identity and then oh-so-generously allow atomized, disempowered Palestinians to have individual rights as long as Jewish political and cultural control is unthreatened.

    The theft of their land and the ongoing Israeli campaign to bring about their total destruction as a people, is not compensated by the table scraps you are so proud of having thrown them.

    And of course, when a Palestinian like Arab MK Haneen Zoabi says anything that the Jewish state establishment finds offensive or threatening, these individual rights are immediately trashed:

    On 15 July 2014, five days after the kidnapping by Palestinians of three Israeli teenagers, Zoabi said, “Is it strange that people living under occupation and living impossible lives, in a situation where Israel kidnaps new prisoners every day, is it strange that they kidnap? They are not terrorists. Even if I do not agree with them, they are people who do not see any way to change their reality, and they are compelled to use means like these”…On 25 July, Israeli attorney general Yehuda Weinstein ordered an investigation of Zoabi on charges of incitement and public disgrace. On 29 July, Zoabi was suspended from the Knesset plenum for a duration of six months. During that time she was not allowed to address the Knesset or its committees. Zoabi’s appeal to Israel’s Supreme Court to overturn the suspension was rejected.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneen_Zoabi

    Freedom of speech Israeli style! Your unremitting apologies for the Jewish state are weak.

  • Jon Robbins

    The current reality:

    “One young Ethiopian Israeli man…is grateful for the videotaped beating of the Ethiopian Israeli soldier [by other Israelis], for it finally forced the rest of Israeli society to see what is a fact of everyday life in his community.

    Asked if the protests were inspired by recent anti-police brutality protests in the United States, he said: “Maybe, but Israel copies everything from the US. ***They’ve copied the way the US treats black people.”***

    Getanet, an Ethiopian Israeli father of three from Ariel, said ***the situation has worsened in Israel since he immigrated in 1984.*** He said something has changed, but couldn’t put his finger on it. He also said the message he wants to get across is one of solidarity, that racism affects all segments of Israeli society, not just Ethiopian Israelis.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/After-police-beating-of-Ethiopian-soldier-protesters-block-off-major-Tel-Aviv-junction-400939

  • Jon Robbins

    “Our refusal to look squarely at the evil character of the American Confederacy turned us into idiots.”

    Actually, it’s our refusal to look squarely at the evil character of Judeosupremacist Israel that has turned us into idiots.

    The Confederacy is done. It’s main appeal is to Scots-Irish southerners who were maneuvered into fighting for a slavocracy that brought in slaves to undercut the value of their labor. That’s why the battle flag has the Cross of Saint Andrew unlike any of the Confederate national flags. The battle flag is ultimately the flag of the Scots-Irish southern soldiers in that war, not the flag of the “cavalier” slave-holding elite. I have no great attachment to the stars and bars, but it should not be removed because this mass murderer is shown waving one in a photo. Let it be done by referendum.

    Goldman loves to waste our time poking at the long-decayed body of the Confederacy, while vociferously advocating the right of Jews to take the land of others and subjugate them under a Judocracy.

    In other words, Goldman is the consummate Jewish hypocrite.

  • mijikai

    OK, self-indoctrinated.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Discovered his ego-projection in the sky, and liked what he saw. ‘A self-made man who worships his creator’.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    It’ll be the Gaza Defence-they made us do it! Also the Purim defence, the Sabra and Shatilla defence, the Nakbah defence, the Deir Yassin defence etc.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    So why do they support Israel and its barbaric treatment of the dispossessed Palestinians?

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Meanwhile Jewish Home MK, Ayelet Shaked openly supports calls for the genocide of the Palestinians, and Nutty yahoo makes her a Cabinet Minister. The ‘Justice’ Minister, would you believe.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    But not for Palestinians. An intriguing contradiction. The common thread is pretty plain to see.

  • davidpgoldman

    What about 800,000 dispossessed Jews expelled from Muslim countries after 1948? Why is this any different from the exchanges of population between Greece and Turkey, Germany and Poland, India and Pakistan, etc. etc. during the 20th century?

  • davidpgoldman

    To reply to your question: the inner life of an evangelical Christian is the recapitulation of the history of Israel. They deeply identify with us.

  • Jams O’Donnell

    “Our refusal to look squarely at the evil character of the American Confederacy turned us into idiots” Amazing that the very similar refusal to look squarely at the evil and genocidal character of the Zionist movement escapes poor Spengler’s blinkered mind. Of course it’s easy for him to see the flaws in the US – that’s not his first loyalty.

  • davidpgoldman

    Author’s privilege. If you want my views, read the article. I don’t owe you a personal explanation.

  • davidpgoldman

    Jews are 110 times overrepresented in Nobel Prizes (.2% of the world population gets 22% of Nobel Prizes). Or is that part of the world Jewish conspiracy as well? Is the Swedish Academy subject to “Jewish nepotism”? Let me tell you what makes us smart: “emotional acceptance of the consequences of our actions.” In our liturgy we accept the blame for all the ill that has befallen us, and we look coldly at our faults as well as the faults of greatest leaders, for example Moses. We do not invent self-consoling myths to explain our failures. That, as I wrote, is what makes people stupid. And the self-consoling myth that makes people stupidest of all is that the Jews somehow are at fault for other people’s problems. Jew-hatred makes people into utter morons, or, to coin a phrase, mumblebrains.

  • davidpgoldman

    I’m for one-man, one-vote in Israel and equal opportunity, same as anywhere else. Where do you get the chutzpah to call ME a racist?

  • davidpgoldman

    What if Mississippi in 1860 had a law allowing the enslavement of white people? Would you have considered that a state’s right?

  • davidpgoldman

    That is what we call eine Schande vor den Goyim.

  • Jon Robbins

    No, you don’t owe me an explanation, and I don’t owe you a research project to see what point you are trying to make.

    Oh, and “author’s privilege” is purely an invention.

  • Jon Robbins

    “We do not invent self-consoling myths to explain our failures.”

    You’re joking, right?

    If there is any group that specializes in the systematic concoction of self-consoling/self-justifying myths, it’s the Jews:

    –Pharaoh, Haman and the associated Jewish revenge fantasies
    –“God told us to kill those guys because he wanted us to have their land,” —Hanukah was all about an evil Greek kind when in reality it was mostly about an intra-Jewish universalist vs phariseo-nationalist civil war
    –Jacob vs Esau AKA swindling the non-Jew is OK because that’s what God wants (often reiterated in Jewish literature of other eras)
    –the imagined history of “Jewish tolerance” which was only the desire of Jews to be tolerated by majority national communities, not the desire of Jews to tolerate others
    –“We’re just innocent Jews trading and innovating and trying to stay out of trouble” when the reality is one of Jews disproportionately involved in the slave trade, flocking into areas under the protection of imperial conquerors (Muslim conquest of Spain, Polish conquest of what is now Ukraine, British conquest of Palestine)
    –And of course the ultimate: No matter what we do, we are a “blessing unto the nations.”

    Too many other instances of self-indulgent Jewish myth-making even to start to enumerate.

    Your mendacity is boundless, G0ldman.

  • davidpgoldman

    Read the Bible through Jewish eyes. Jacob’s deception of Isaac is morally troubling even though Rebecca arranged it on the strength of prophecy. Jacob’s fight with the angel is a turning point where his name changes from Yaakov, or “heel,” to Israel, variously “contends with God” or Champion of God. It is all difficult and ambiguousx and Jacob is hardly blameless. This isn’t Lives of Saints but the report of fallable humans encountering the Divine. Like I said: Jew hatred makes people into morons. You get an F in Bible class.

  • Jon Robbins

    Don’t give me your “morally troubling,” faux-exegetic sophistry. The Jacob narrative is part of a mythic back-story conceived to give Jewish Chosenism a “historical” pedigree. And that IS reading it through Jewish eyes–or at least through the Jewish mind that conceived it.

    “You get an F in Bible class.”

    LOL. The cultist gives out F’s for critiques of his cult.

    And I forgot to include in my brief list of self-indulgent Jewish myths this key one that you cite:

    –Any systematic critique of Jewish actions, culture and history is “Jew hatred.”

    The reality, of course, is that given the self-aggrandizing noxiousness of so much of Jewish ideology and its consequent actions, antipathy to it and to those who espouse it is a perfectly natural and legitimate reaction. No wonder it’s on the rise.

  • Jon Robbins

    “Support for Israel is weakening among evangelical Christians, prompting a new struggle for the hearts and minds of younger members of America’s largest pro-Israel demographic group.

    While hard numbers are not available, evangelical leaders on both sides of the divide on Israel agree that members of the millennial generation do not share their parents’ passion for the Jewish state; many are seeking some form of evenhandedness when approaching the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    “What is happening is that the hard line of Christian Zionists was not successfully passed forward to the next generation, because it was based on theological themes that are now being questioned by younger evangelicals,” said David Gushee, professor of Christian ethics and director of the Center for Theology and Public Life at Mercer University in Atlanta.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.579182

  • Jon Robbins

    You really are a serial liar, Goldman. You claim the expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Muslim countries. Here is the reality:

    “The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries or Jewish exodus from Arab countries (Hebrew: יציאת יהודים ממדינות ערב‎, Yetziat yehudim mi-medinot Arav; Arabic: هجرة اليهود من الدول العربية والإسلامية‎ hijrat al-yahūd min ad-duwal al-‘Arabīyah wal-Islāmīyah) was the departure, flight, evacuation and migration, of 850,000 Jews,[1][2] primarily of Sephardi andMizrahi background, from Arab and Muslim countries, mainly from 1948 onwards.

    “In 1944, the Zionist leadership in Mandate Palestine approved the One Million Plan, for the large scale immigration of Jews within 18 months, targeting various Jewish communities, including those in Islamic countries. Later, after the establishment of the State of Israel, a new plan for 600,000 immigrants over 4 years was made.[6]

    “The reasons for the exodus included push factors, such as persecution, antisemitism, political instability,[15] poverty[15] and MINOR EXPULSIONS; together with pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic status and a secure home in Europe or the Americas.”

    Jews left Muslim countries for two basic reasons:

    1. The Zionist leadership induced them to leave

    2. The theft of Palestinian Arab land for a Jewish state and the tendency of Mizrahi Jews to align themselves with European imperial authorities enraged other Muslims–especially Arabs–resulting in an unsurprising upsurge of anti-Jewish sentiment, especially after the 1956 and 1967 wars.

    About 2/3 of Mizrahi Jews who emigrated to Israel came from the Magreb where “As in Tunisia and Morocco, Algerian Jews did not face expulsion or asset confiscation or any similar government persecution under French colonial administration, and Zionist agents were allowed freedom of action to encourage emigration. Only later in Libya, after the Six Day War was there sustained anti-Jewish policy.

    In regard to Iraq: “In 1951, the Iraqi Government made advocating Zionism or belonging to a Zionist organization a crime and ordered the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism.[93] Alternative views[94][95][96][97] are of illegal and subsequent legislated emigration, but regarding expulsion, they include “trying to”, “wanted to”, and “planned to”, but no cases of actual expulsions from Iraq. Instead, the bulk of the Jews leaving Iraq did so via Israeli airlifts named Operation Ezra and Nehemiah with special permission from the Iraqi government.”

    In regard to Egypt, most Jews left voluntarily in 1948 and most of the remainder after Israel attacked Egypt in 1956.

    There were no expulsions from Yemen, Syria, Turkey or Iran–just intense anti-Jewish sentiment and resulting violence driven by the ongoing Jewish conquest of Palestine. So your claim that 800,000 Jews were “expelled” is provably false.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

    Is there any lie you won’t tell, Goldman?

  • Preston Montfort

    What does the skin color of the enslaved have to do with anything?

  • bilodeau

    Re: “its response was to excise from religion the notion of sin and virtue”

    This may have happened in effect in the mainline denominations, but was not characteristic of the South or the West as a whole after the war. There was a strange and powerful development alongside the other. An 18-year-old Confederate soldier (raised in Michigan, but living in Tennessee when the war started) named Cyrus Scofield was seriously wounded at Antietam in 1862, still fairly early in the war. He was discharged but later reconscripted, whereupon he deserted to North and stayed out of the rest of the war. After years of failure in business and marriage, he converted to Evangelical Christianity under the influence of Dwight Moody. He eventually wrote the Scofield Reference Bible, which incorporated “premillennial dispensationalism” taken over from the Plymouth Brethren. He also became an influential speaker and organizer in both the north and south. This was not Calvinism, but it did incorporate a pessimistic view of human nature and utterly rejected the Social Gospel, holding that the only respite for the faithful was the coming apocalypse. His views, as much as anyone’s, were the foundation for the rise of radical fundamentalism in the US in the early 20th century. This may have become the religion of the “stupid” in some places. The closest thing we had to a president from this tradition was Harry Truman, who was a Presbyterian, but would have been familiar with dispensationalist churches.

  • davidpgoldman

    Just spent most the day in synagogue parsing the commentaries on Moses’ error in striking the rock. There is an enormous literature on the flaws of our greatest leader. Then I come back to the discussion and read trivial conspiracy theory. Jew hatred really does make you stupid.

  • davidpgoldman

    Jews don’t enslave Arabs. We send them to medical school. The fact that Arab Culture is disintegrating like all tribal cultures is not our fault. The moment we get Arab girls into university they reject the traditional family. Jews now have more children than Arabs between the Jordan River and the sea. Mr. Robbins, whatever tidepool you crawled out of, I can say one thing about it with certainty: it is dying, and your memory will die with it. Your inescapable fate is to be forgotten. Rage on. Dein schlimmster Fluch wird keine Fliege toten.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    You forgot the biggie-the ‘Holocaust’ cult imposed on the West as a sort of State religion that everyone must be indoctrinated in, day after day. A cult that reduces all the suffering of non-Jews, not just in WW2 but throughout history, to relative insignificance and unimportance in comparison to the suffering of the Jews. A cult that has demanded a Holocaust Memorial or Museum in virtually every large Western city, while Memorials to the Roma and virtually unknown, and those to the 25 million dead Soviet citizens are being busily destroyed by the USA’s news fascist friends in Ukraine. The USA is stuffed to overflowing with such institutions and cenotaphs, while virtually none exist commemorating the genocide of the Native Americans and black slaves. A cult that has led to the ‘Holocaust’ being studied in tens of thousands of scholarly dissertations, and countless documentaries, while the Hecatomb in the Belgian Congo that saw ten million killed has had one or two scholarly studies. A cult that is used, utterly wickedly, as a justification for Israel’s brutal crimes today, an insult both to Israel’s victims, and the Jewish victims of the Nazis. Thankfully decent Jews still exist, and one group of Holocaust survivors came out, during the latest Gaza massacre, to declare that ‘Never again means never again for anybody’.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    The bloodlust seems identical. And, please, don’t pretend that your type of Jew, supremacist, arrogant, contemptuous, is the only kind of Jew that exists. Thankfully that is not true, although your type of Likudnik, fundamentalist does seem to be on top in Israel.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Israel is increasingly on the nose with many young Diaspora Jews, too.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Well, as you know, Ben-Gurion demanded they move to Israel, and those reluctant were stampeded by Mossad false-flag attacks. And also, once the extent and barbarity of the Nakbah became known, some Arabs turned on the Jews in revenge and no doubt out of a thirst for loot. That is comprehensible but still wicked. I do believe that many more people died in the population exchanges you mention, than in the expulsion of the Jews.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Excellent, comprehensive, rebuttal.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    From reading your racist apologias for Zionist crimes, that’s where.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    In fact the entire human tide-pool is dying, even the Judeosupremacist section of it. The ‘Eternal People’ are going out with all us ‘other ranks’.

  • Jon Robbins

    Your “greatest leader” was the leader of a cult/tribal confederation who made up (or on whose behalf was made up) an implausible story of a sojourn in/escape from Egypt and a much more plausible story of inter-tribal genocide to acquire (relatively) prime agricultural land in Canaan, all justified by a palpably proto-fascist, chosenist narrative.

    And you want me to be impressed by your chin-stroking over Moses’ striking the rock vs speaking to the rock?

    Typical Jewish technique: Obsess over the morally trivial and imagine that it makes you morally profound, while at the same time, refusing to acknowledge the real and fundamental flaws of Jewish history and ideology: the unending sense of entitlement and the means used to acquire what you have convinced yourself that God wants his chosen people to have as befitting their exalted status.

    Unsurprisingly, this does not play well with those whose land has been stolen from them or otherwise fleeced, and telling me how many hours you labored over Moses and the rock changes not one thing.

    And there is that “self-consoling myth” again: Any systematic criticism of Judaism/Jewry can simply be written off as “Jew hatred.” It’s the most predictable thing in the world.

  • Jon Robbins

    Yep, there are many other things that could be added to the list, but the main point is the sheer absurdity of Goldman’s ascription of “self-consolding myths” to others and insisting that the practice is wholly foreign to Jews. It deserves a special place in the DSM.

  • Jon Robbins

    I’ve heard your demographic spiel before, Goldman. It’s like a security blanket for you, isn’t it?

    “Jews now have more children than Arabs between the Jordan River and the sea.’

    Yes, your use of war, police operations, embargoes, coerced emigration, water and land theft against the Palestinians to engineer “new demographic facts” in Palestine leading to the eventual anchluss of remaining Palestinian lands and your much desired Palästinenserdämmerung. But, hey, it’s not our fault, says the ever-disingenuous Goldman.

    Nothing has changed since the walls came tumbling down at Jericho and what followed, aside from the sophistication of the means employed, has it?

    And I already dealt below with your tired “we-do-great-things-for-the-Palestinians” meme, to which you did not respond. I said:

    “The [Zionist/Israeli] goal has been to strip Palestinians of their identity and then oh-so-generously allow atomized, disempowered Palestinians to have individual rights as long as Jewish political and cultural control is unthreatened. The theft of their land and the ongoing Israeli campaign to bring about their total destruction as a people, is not compensated by the table scraps you are so proud of having thrown them.”

    Funny that someone who aggressively insinuates his Jewishness into virtually everything he writes, prophesying the downfall and destruction of everyone and everything that he interprets as threatening his own warped ideology can accuse others of “raging.” As I said below, your condition should be in the DSM.

  • davidpgoldman

    Fundamental flaws have a way of catching up with civilizations, all of whom die — except, evidently, for us. Read my book, “How Civilizations Die.” We have a joke: Why do Jewish men die before their wives? Because they want to. Same with civilizations, just like Nietzsche said. The indelible symptom of a death wish is Jew-hatred. Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad, but before that, they make them hate Jews.
    We’ve been around for 3,500 years and we’ve never been stronger. Whatever we’re doing, it seems to work for us. If you assumed that one and only one people was “chosen” and sought empirical evidence for it, could you find another candidate beside the Jews?

  • Jon Robbins

    Translation: I refuse to countenance any systematic criticism of Judaism/Jewry and I’m going to stick my fingers in my ears repeat my mantra (“3,500 years,” etc) until you stop.

  • Jon Robbins

    “An 18-year-old Confederate soldier (raised in Michigan, but living in Tennessee when the war started) named Cyrus Scofield was seriously wounded at Antietam in 1862, still fairly early in the war.”

    From what I know, this is not true. Scofield was hospitalized in April, 1862 for unspecified reasons–probably illness. There is no record of his having been wounded at Antietam/Sharpsburg in September, 1862.

    There IS a record of Scofield’s request in July, 1862 to obtain an exemption from the Confederate draft on the basis that he was a minor and not actually a citizen of the CSA.

    Scofield’s regiment, the 7th Tennessee, was in AP Hill’s division at Antietam, which did see significant action, but there is no mention of any specific actions by Scofield during the battle. He clearly was not wounded, because his release from military service pursuant to his July request was documented as having taken place on 26 September, two weeks after the battle.

    I do not believe that there is any documentary evidence of Scofield’s whereabouts between his discharge in September, 1862 and his appearance in St. Louis in September, 1866. Many claims have been made that his military service lasted until the end of the Civil War, and that he performed heroically at Antietam, but there does not appear to be any factual basis for them.

  • bilodeau

    You’re right on this point, Mr Robbins: I had previously thought that Scofield had remained a reb soldier through the war (as you say many have claimed), and was surprised to learn of his hospitalization and discharge in ’62 – though I’m fairly sure my source (whatever it was) implied those all came after Antietam. At my age, it’s dangerous to rely on memory, but there I am. My main point on the variety of religious views after the war stands, but I suppose my account of the Scofield’s war experiences will have to be resigned to docudrama or historical fiction. (My imagination tends to fill in reassuring detail when I see movies with plot holes.) He became well-liked in both North and South in his later years, so maybe he had location-dependent sets of recollections. I’m pretty sure there was at least one source which described him making his way home dejectedly after Lee’s surrender. More docudrama, I suppose.

    My own great-great-grandfather was a diehard Union veteran, William Murphy of Morgan Co., Indiana. I don’t know what unit he was in, so I don’t know his itinerary. [I seem to be on the outs with the person in the family who has amassed the best records, so I may never know.] He got a small pension which he had to live on, having lost the use of one arm – no one in the family ever said he lost the arm entirely. My grandmother told me how, when she was a young girl (early 1890s), he would take her on his knee and teach her songs like ‘Rally round the Flag’ and ‘Marching through Georgia’. She had me bang out the chords on the piano as she sang them, and I could hear echoes of old William’s fervor. She said he was once eligible for a pension increase. When he went to apply, the bureaucrat taking his info asked him, “Are you a Republican or a Democrat?” He rose in great indignation and said, “I would NEVER STOOP SO LOW as to be a Democrat!” The bureaucrat apparently was a Democrat, and he did not get the increase. Politics was even more partisan back then than now, at least when money was involved.

  • Jon Robbins

    Interesting recollections. Such family stories are always enjoyable. Supposedly, a lady from the southern branch of my family was in a theater in NYC the day (or day after) Lincoln was shot. It was announced in the theater, and she thereupon stood and started singing Dixie and had to be packed off out of the country by friends for an extended period of time.

    Also, at my uncle’s wedding to a southerner in Savannah c. 1970, many of the groom’s family were around a piano and started singing “Marching Through Georgia” at the reception. The bride’s father approached in consternation to say that “We don’t sing that song down here.”

  • bilodeau

    I lived in Virginia for 5 years, in the late 70s. I was VERY careful NOT to sing ‘Marching Through Georgia’. Sherman has never been forgiven, and probably never will be, though by focusing on destruction of property rather than lives, he may have shortened the war and reduced the final toll. He certainly made the governor of Georgia eager to secede from the seceders.

  • davidpgoldman

    Yes, and the United States of America was founded by deluded fanatics who believed that Mount Sinai established the principle of human freedom in history for the first time (read Eric Nelson’s “The Hebrew Republic,” 2010). What a shame…if only the Founders had you to set them straight, we never need have bothered with the Revolution.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    Jewish achievement, for good and ill, is monumental. So is that of the Chinese, the Indians, Germans etc. Some does derive from Jewish nepotism, of course, and historical peculiarities of the last fifty years that will not continue, but the achievement is undoubtedly great. It doesn’t make Jew a Herrenvolk however, just a long extant culture that values learning and achievement, as it does greed and xenophobia. For all the positives there are negatives, too, like the Jews’ dominance of human organ trafficking, blood diamond trafficking, sex trafficking, pornography, various drug trafficking, the trafficking of instruments of surveillance, repression and murder tested out on the Palestinians as ‘lab rats’, pawn broking and the micro-loans rackets and the entire financial Moloch that is consuming the Western world.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    How is it that ‘freedom’ first appeared on Mount Sinai (the narcissistic delusion of self-importance, as ever) then was immediately expressed in the slaughter of the worshippers of the Golden Calf, and the brutal genocides of the Canaanites in the first Nakbah? You can easily see how mass murderers like George ‘The Village Destroyer’ Washington would see such a cult, that sanctified the mass murder and genocide of those who got in the way of its Divine Purpose, as real role models.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    The narcissism is thrilling. The Chinese, Indians and Australian indigenous have been around a wee while, too. Jew-hatred is the vital element that must be found everywhere, to justify the real ‘Oldest Hatred’- Judaic goy-hatred.

  • mulga mumblebrain

    That the Jews have survived for a long time is interesting, given the number of times that their behaviour has incited such hatred of them that it has ended in blood-shed. Mind you, under civilizations where Judaic preying on the goyim was kept under control, the Jews and goyim often lived in peace and tranquillity. But, all things considered, preaching that you are an eternal master race and others are lesser beings will, at one time or another, incite quite a deal of antipathy in those susceptible to anger.

  • davidpgoldman

    Jew-hatred really does turn you into a moron. Hitler thought the Jews conspired to poison Aryan blood with syphilis through the white-slave traffic. Medieval Jew-haters (and some Arab crazies today) think we bake Passover matzah with Gentile blood. Organ trafficking? A disgusting lie. Surveillance, maybe; there’s a cute Israeli device that plants a Trojan on your computer every time you say something nasty about Jews on a website. There’s nothing racial about Jewish accomplishment; the Arabs who go to Israeli universities become doctors every bit as good as the Jews. The different is cultural, and the real source of Jewish genius is Torah study. Note that there are no anti-Semites in China, for the simple reason that the Chinese also have a culture that promotes achievement and do not feel jealous of us.

  • davidpgoldman

    You failed to note that Wikipedia warns that the neutrality of this account is disputed, It is, in fact, mainly false.

  • Jon Robbins

    The bottom line is that absent the Ashkenazic Jewish conquest of Palestine, there would have been no Nakba and therefore only a fraction of the violent Arab hostility to indigenous Jews in the region that led in large part to their flight.

    Amazing how much misery Ashkenazim have brought to the Mizrahim without, of course, taking any responsibility for it. European Jews have sought and continue to seek to excuse themselves from the actions that generated mounting Muslim antipathy to indigenous Jews, i.e., the wresting of control over what had been 90+% Arab Palestine from its native inhabitants.

    And since the 1990s, Hasbarists like you, confronted with a wider understanding of the ethnic cleansing that was at the heart of the Judeosupremacist progressive seizure of most of Palestine, adopted this “they-did-it-too” attempt at moral equivalence in order to try and minimize the impact of increasing appreciation of the consequences of the European Jewish Lebensraum landgrab in Palestine. This is where your love of “population transfers” comes from.

    Stop trying to evade responsibility for the consequences of your actions, Goldman. It was only a few days ago that you were bragging about how Jews don’t make up “self-consolding myths” and yet it is precisely with those that you indulge yourself.

  • Jon Robbins

    The US was founded by men who very much did not want a polity in which Levites could roam around, mass-murdering golden-calf-worshipers. Whatever their flaws, they did not suffer from that kind of fanaticism.

    And Nelson’s book is focused on the 16th and 17th centuries–not on the founders of the United States in the late 18th century. They may have availed themselves indirectly of the perceived anti-monarchical vein in the OT/TNK, but they were primarily focused on Greece, Rome and the few examples of European republics as political inspirations, not Judaism.

    Once again, you obsessively oversell Judaism and the imagined centrality of Jews in virtually everything you can conceive of, and only succeed in making yourself more repellent by doing so.

  • davidpgoldman

    I am going to have to ban several posters. Racists, anti-Semites and other lunatics should find other venues where they will feel more comfortable.

  • I am intensely disappointed that the comments for Spengler inevitably degenerate into seemingly anti-semitic rants that ignore the fundamental focus of the article he has written.

    Of course, it doesn’t help when David himself gets caught up in the silliness, talking about myth as if it were fact.

    Its one of the reasons why I tend to avoid commenting to these posts.

  • elHombre

    I’m late here and I disagree with the theme of this article (See, e.g., the Corwin Amendment). Nevertheless, I am an admirer of Goldman’s work and I am sorry to see he has attracted a sodality of ill-informed, anti-Semitic trolls. I’m sorrier to see him dignify their drivel by engaging them.

  • todd lane

    Ok here how your stupid by making this so i cant get a confederate flag cake at walmart or enjoy the general lee car with a confederate flag on roof but yet i can get an Isis cake and a new law was put into place and yet the confederate flag is a problem no there are bigger problems to deal with other than the confederate flag

  • mrwild

    I’m sure that Mr. Goldman will take comfort in knowing that the original design for the flag was modified to not appear to be overtly Christian in design, following concerns from the substantial Southern Jewish community at the time. See: The Jewish Confederates http://www.amazon.com/The-Jewish-Confederates-Robert-Rosen/dp/1570033633